Voice Over  0:01  
You’re listening to the slumber party podcast with your host Amanda Jewson, a mom of two girls, a child and infant sleep expert and general sleep lover. If you’re a tired parent who is desperate for answers, or just someone who loves sleep, this podcast was created just for you. Each episode is packed full of tips and tricks to help you maintain your sanity, as well as your social life during the early stages of parenthood. So grab your headphones, it’s time to get comfy.

Amanda 0:35
Okay, hello, everybody. Welcome to another edition of the slumber pod slumber pod. The slumber party Podcast. I am speaking today with Nikki I’m kind of chuckling at myself. Because today is my podcast, podcast recording. I’m speaking to many people. So you’re gonna see me trip over my words and say things I don’t mean for, you know, the whole episode. So, you know, be aware of that. Okay, so, Nikki, I had you on because when you applied, you said something that really stuck with me. And I think a lot of people listening today are going to identify with this is, why is everything that I’m doing with this first kid, not working with the second or the third or the fourth. And why I want to bring it up is because there tends to be a lot of shame from parents in that, like, there must be something I’m doing wrong, especially as a second or third time parent where you kind of feel like a vet. And you’re like, Yeah, I got this. And then all of a sudden, especially I always find this, especially with my third time parents, they’re like, this does not make sense. This child has a different mold from the other two. I don’t know what’s happening. So I will let you take over. I want you to jump in and tell me everything that’s going on. You’ll see me taking some notes as well. And then I will interject with some clarifying questions. Okay. Okay. So, the jump in.

Nikki 2:13
Okay, so I had my first five years ago, and she was an angel. She is that kid that will convince other people to have kids. Right. She was an anomaly and I get that it had not a lot to do with me. It was just the luck of the draw. She by five weeks, she slept through the night with no intervention, no issues No. Like she would put herself to sleep. She would first when I would try to cuddle her. And I would so then I would just put her down in her crib and I’m like, fine, and then she’d pass out. And so at five weeks, she slept eight hours. And then gradually I think by like the end of that week, she was sleeping 12 hours straight. She used a soother, but in like she was she wasn’t able to put it back in her mouth. So she was able to figure it out. She was able to self soothe in some other way, or whatever it was, but she was her own. Kind of angel. Perfect. Yeah. Yeah,

Amanda 3:35
he was her own model.

Unknown Speaker 3:37
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Um, so I like that. That saying, I don’t know the word for word, but it’s the first kids always best or easier, I guess, to convince you to have the second and then the second will prove that you had nothing to do with how great

Amanda 4:01
Oh God, I really identify with I mean, my second was pretty chilled, too. But I feel like we were very, like, I went back to work. We were just talking about this. We have a contact that I worked with. But I went back to work at four months with my first baby. And I did it because I felt like I could like I was rested again. My first baby was such a great sleeper. I could pump well like things are just easy. And I was like, Oh, why do people keep asking me that. And then I had my second who is also by all accounts like quote unquote, a good baby. Like, you know, no colic, whatever. I hate using that term, because babies are just babies. But right. My second comes and I was like, four months. I was like, Oh my god, there’s no way I could have done this time. I don’t know. Now I understand why people were looking at me. It’s like someone risen from the dead. And they’re like, why are you here? And you’re like, I don’t know. I just Damn it. Yeah rose from that. Dead.

Unknown Speaker 5:01
Yeah. And like, especially now with my second how he’s actually sleeping like a baby. Yes. He, he’s making like, so I’ve never really knew what sleep deprivation was. Yeah. And so like going into it the second time, like it was more of, Oh, we’ve got this, we know what we’re doing, you’re kind of, we can jump back in. I mean, I know that there was a five year gap, but it was still like we had time to kind of get our daughter to where she could be a lot more independent. So it wasn’t like I was raising two babies at the same time, because that’s another whole stressful that I’m not willing to if

Amanda 5:44
I did, it wouldn’t recommend

Unknown Speaker 5:46

Unknown Speaker 5:48
And so with my first I was volunteering, because I was trying to get a job on a school board. I was in volunteering during my mat leave, and I was able to because my daughter was a great sleeper, and she was sleep through the night. Yeah, um, also another thing, I never heard of wake windows before. I never heard of like sleep cycles I never heard of, like, I’ve heard of mom friends with wonder year, Wonder weeks, when they would talk about the leaks and all this other stuff. And I’m like, I have no idea what you guys are talking about. She my daughter never did sleep regressions she just was Chris writes through at all and just aced it. And then. So now that my son is four months, one week, and so now going through it, I’m like, oh, I’ve got the app. I’m tracking this, I’m on Huckleberry I’m trying to figure out his wake windows, I’m paying attention with cues. I’m trying to figure out all this stuff. And I don’t know. Now if I’m, like overthinking it.

Amanda 6:57
For sure.

Unknown Speaker 6:58
Because there’s even been a couple of days where I’m just like, Hey, we’re just throwing all the rules out, we’re just gonna be here. And they go just as smooth. As if I’m kind of paying attention to any sort of wait windows hours, apps, anything like that. Okay,

Amanda 7:21
so this is actually a really like that. You talk about that? Because I think people really focus. So there’s two parts of sleep. Okay. There are? Well, and you know, this as a teacher, right? When you’re making modifications there are like, or, or what’s the other word modification, accommodation, thank you. When you’re making accommodations, there are many types of accommodations you can make for a child, right? There are, how we assess them, we can change that we can change their environment, we can change all of these things. Now, with babies, it’s kind of a similar thing, you’re going to have the actual behavior part. And then you’re going to have the environment. So and I don’t want to play down environment, because that is very important. But what happens is, and what I think is a disservice to moms everywhere is that people don’t really want to talk about the behavior aspect of sleep, sleep is really behavioral. And for some babies, and it sounds like my, my first baby, it was a lot like your first baby. Like, I remember, she did like three or four hours stretches from from the jump, right, like, and I remember, someone had asked me, is she a good sleeper? And I was like, I don’t know. And my friend who had three kids was like, yeah, that’s amazing. I was like, Oh, yeah, she’s a good sleeper. I don’t know. So like, yes, there are some babies that come out. And things are just easy, or like, I think that some babies will come out and let’s say you they do go through a regression and you go into the room, and you rock them a little bit that night. And that’s the long and the short of it. And like that’s it. So it’s not to say that they didn’t go through those things. It’s more that like, their temperament might be a little bit different. They may have suck their thumb or something in the womb, and then that’s right back right in there. Right. So I think that there are some things that that I always really want to focus on for people is like we are dealing with a person who came out of your body. And we have this idea that we have anything to do with that and there definitely is probably some DNA stuff happening. But I really truly believe that your person comes out there person. So like, you know, my first is full of fire, good sleeper, but very much like if I had all legs up, I get well now and it’s gonna take a long time for me to come down. That’s who she is. And my second is like theory like hello DDD. But then when she’s mad, she’s mad and stubborn, and persistent. And that is her that is always been her. That was her as a baby. And I can think back to two incident incidences, incidences, yep. Okay, with both of the babies, where I’ve been like, oh, wow, you’ve always been this way, you’ve always been yourself.

And we can’t really change that. So one of my favorite people is shefali Saberi, who wrote this book, I’m looking at it, the awakened family. And she talks a lot about that, or the awakened child, the idea that, you know, parents are constantly trying to like, put their babies into like boxes and mold them in like you will be this person. And like, there’s only so much we can do. And I really like, it’s something that I’ve always felt. And then she read this book, I’m like, Yes, absolutely. So first and foremost, before we even get into any of those things, your your baby is a person. And it’s really normal that they would be really different from each other. And we were kind of talking about this before we started recording is like, the parents who struggle the most are those like, third and fourth time parents who are like, No, I am a veteran parent, I am a champion of life. I know what I’m doing. It shouldn’t be this hard. Why is it that hard? And it’s, it’s not that you’re doing anything wrong, it’s like your play, your strategies need to be a little bit different based on that child. Okay. So that’s part one. Part Two, is that people really, really focus on the environmental changes. And to be fair, like if even if you’re listening to this podcast, or, you know, I’m posting something, I’m probably going to talk a lot about easy things that can be changed. And that can make a difference. But when they’re not, when you’ve done all the environmental things, and they’re still not working, then we have to jump into the behavior. So what I mean about those environmental things is people really focus on having their room in absolute blackout conditions. They buy the best white noise machine on the market, they download the Huckleberry app, and they are like, I am putting this baby down at two hours and five minutes based on this exactly. I am doing everything right, this baby still isn’t sleeping. When you’re doing all of the things, then we have to like, roll back even farther. Okay, so these environmental changes aren’t happening happening. They’re not really helping my problem. And, you know, this is a majority of my discovery calls with people or people saying, like, I have, like a $2,000 nursery is set up for sleep I’ve got, I’ve put up the mobile, I’ve taken the volleyball down, I’ve had music, I stopped playing music, I like I’ve done all the things What is going on? It’s it’s that those environmental changes are compliments to a behavior. So if you think of yourself going to a hotel. You know, are you going to fall asleep at the hotel? Yes. Is it better if they have blackout conditions, and they’ve removed all the noise, and they’ve removed all of the blue lights? Yeah, you’re gonna have an even better, deeper sleep in that case. But it’s not if you don’t know how to sleep, or if you’re an insomniac. And the first part is that hotel isn’t going to make anything better for you. So then we have to think about, okay, if the baby isn’t sleeping, is there a behavior there that the baby is relying on outside of himself in order to fall asleep? So those are things like rocking shushing petting zoo, there’s breastfeeding, all of those things? And you know, definitely I don’t really think they listen to my podcast. So I don’t know who I’m talking to you when I make these disclaimers, but if you are doing these things, and you’re enjoying them, and you don’t mind that your baby has those behaviors, then I don’t think that there’s any reason you need to change anything. And you don’t really have to worry about what I’m saying. Okay, but if you know, like, when I said behaviors, you kind of nodded your head. If there is a behavior that your baby is relying on to fall asleep, then they’re just coming by the waking is honestly because sleep is so behavioral. Your baby is saying Okay, thank you. You’ve helped me to sleep. Thank you very much. And then like you said, I don’t know about sleep cycles. What the hell’s the sleep cycle? Well, the sleep cycle is this you know, thing that we do and then we it means that we wake up several times a night. And, you know, I’m actually hoping more people listen to this because I do explain this all in my episode called the four month regression, regression is shit. But then nobody wants to listen to it if their baby isn’t four months. So I think I need to re label it. They’re like, No, no, my baby is eight months into it. Okay, good, good. It just explains the whole like behavior aspect of that that, you know, I have a client right now that I’m working with. They’re like, Oh, you know, I can’t figure out why this baby so cries, we’ve sleep trained


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