Speaker 1: (00:01)
You’re listening to the slumber party podcast with your host, Amanda, Jason, a mom of two girls, a child and infant sleep expert and general sleep lover. If you’re a tired parent who is desperate for answers or just someone who loves sleep, this podcast was created just for you. Each episode is packed full of tips and tricks to help you maintain your sanity, as well as your social life during the early stages of Parenthood to grab your headphones, it’s time to get comfy.

Speaker 1: (00:36)
Hello everybody. And welcome to another episode of the slumber party. Um, I am so excited and guys, this is why I get you to apply for podcast, uh, topics, because I just sit here in my cocoon and I think I know everything and that I forget things. And then our guest today, Melissa had applied to talk about standing. And I was like, yes, this is such a good episode topic because I’m helping your child to sleep when they’re younger, definitely has its benefits, but then all of a sudden you have an older child who is doing a physical development stuff, and that can really derail your sleep. So today we’re going to be talking about all of that, um, and get you back on track. So welcome. Welcome, Melissa. Thank you for coming. Thank you for having me. I’m so excited. So Melissa, you were actually, um, a former client of mine.

Speaker 1: (01:38)
You do group training with me, is that right? I did. Yeah. At the beginning of quarantine. Yeah. Can I just, this is going to be such a moment in time where we’re like, remember when we were in quarantine and that was a real thing. Um, so just tell me a little bit about your guy when we trained and what your issue is for sure. So, um, Carter is nine months old now, but I sleep trained him. I know time is flying, but I sleep trained him when he turned four months old. Um, and actually it went really well. He was really receptive to it and I think he picked up on it pretty quickly. Um, we didn’t really have any issues up until maybe about eight months. He started to pull to stand. And so that’s sort of where, uh, we ran into a little bit of trouble at first he was pulling to stand and I was nervous because he was so shaky sill and like he’s an athlete sack and I was nervous, but he didn’t know how to come down from standing up on his own other than like kind of swapping over.

Speaker 1: (02:48)
And I was just nervous that he would hit his head and whatever. Um, so we would essentially lay him down for bed. And as soon as my husband would leave, the we’d be watching him on the monitor and he’d stand up. And so then we would go in, put him down and at first, because he wasn’t really stable, he would lay back down and then stay down and fall asleep. So that was fine. We were like, okay, well we’ll just pop in and we’ll lay him back down and he’ll fall asleep and whatever. And then a couple of weeks ago we went up North to the cottage and he was having a bit of a harder time falling asleep. Um, and then now he’s also sturdier and standing. And so we would lay him back down and he would stand back up and then we’d go back in Lam down, he’d stand back up as soon as he left the room.

Speaker 1: (03:39)
So we started rubbing his back, picking him up, putting him back down, rubbing his back sort of until he was almost asleep. And then that’s when we kind of make our escape to get out of the room. Yeah. And so that’s sort of been the pattern that we’ve had over the last month. Okay. Um, with him and, and even with night waking, he normally, if he would ever wake up at night, he would cry for a couple minutes or whatever, or make noise for a few minutes and I’d leave him. And within like eight minutes, I’d say he would be back to sleep. But now as soon as he wakes up, he stands up and then I’m like, okay, what are we doing?

Speaker 1: (04:21)
I was like, do I just leave him to stand? Yeah. And sorry, just really quick on those night wakings, have they increased are like, can you talk to me about that? Yeah. He’s now probably getting up about once a night. Okay. Uh, when we were away, he would wake up about twice a night, but generally now the, and like it’s random. So like last night he went to bed around seven 30 maybe. And then he was up at 1130 and normally he would never wake up or wake up that soon after going down. Yeah. But that he woke up at 1130 and then, so I went in, I laid him back down and he was having a hard time. So I rubbed his back and that didn’t work by the time I left his room, he was up again. And then I picked him up and nursed him until he was drowsy. You can’t put him back down. Okay. I was going to ask. So for the most part, I mean, besides last night, are you having to nurse him every time or is it just like, that was kind of a one off that was kind of a one off I’d say.

Speaker 3: (05:28)
Okay,

Speaker 1: (05:30)
Awesome. Okay. So this is where I do that super long roundabout way of answering your question. So, um, you know, physical milestones, uh, and what I mean by physical milestone is like rolling, standing, sitting, walking, crawling. These are these huge big milestones for babies and usually happen around the time that you

Speaker 4: (05:58)
Were talking about now. Um, did you have any trouble with rolling?

Speaker 1: (06:04)
No. Once he learned to roll onto his stomach, he actually became a better sleeper, I would say. So he rolled over maybe the first time he was kind of fussy. I don’t really remember. It was a while ago, but he pretty quickly adjusted to it.

Speaker 4: (06:18)
Okay. You’re one of the lucky ones actually, because I find that when I am working with four to five month old, we often discover rolling is a next developmental milestone because they sleep like three or four nights. Their brains are like, Ooh, okay. We’re rested. I had this development like loaded and ready to come. It looks like you’re ready for it. Bam. And then all of a sudden this great sleeping baby is rolling. Rolling, rolling, rolling. They find themselves on their tummy in the middle of the night. And they’re like, and I like, honestly for me, it was like a two week thing with my first daughter. And then with my second, she never did it. Like I literally went to bed with anxiety from four to six months waiting for this rolling thing to happen. And then she was like, no, I’m fine. A roll in.

Speaker 4: (07:07)
I’m ready. Um, so it sounds like that was kind of you, which is great. Um, but you know, for anyone listening, if you have a baby who is rolling, sitting, standing, crawling, walking, these are huge developments, uh, on their own. So even if we took out, you know, the act of moving their brains are really learning quite a large skill. So you might also see some fussy behavior, extra calories because they’re hungry due to all of the extra movement. Um, you know, some bumps along the way, because they’re, they’re not quite coordinated to do these things yet. Physical developments, like this are one of the things that we can actually really interfere a lot on because when we do, we limit their learning, um, this is literally like, so for things like, you know, I’m learning how to talk, uh, you know, we can rub their back and saying, you know, if they’re fussy, we can do the same thing, but we can’t learn this skill form them.

Speaker 4: (08:09)
We can’t go in and like pick them up and put them down and be like, seeing how you can do it. Right. I’m sure you’ve tried this. And they’re like, yeah, I can’t do it. Yeah, exactly. Same with rolling. You can’t, you can’t be like here, I did a thing and now you can roll. It literally requires the baby to practices over and over and over and over again. And it requires a lot of daytime practice. It requires at nighttime practice as well, because with any developmental milestone and I write this in every sleep plan, there is probably going to be some sleep disruption during that time, a physical milestone or other milestone. Okay. Because our brains process information at night. And so sometimes would even see on the monitor, a baby, getting up when they’re learning, how to crawl, there’ll be on all fours and they’ll go back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, go down and go to sleep.

Speaker 4: (09:05)
Or, you know, the other, uh, example I use all the time is language acquisition. So in the middle of the night, kids will wake up and scream words and be like, ah, mommy, daddy, honey, daddy, mommy. And you’re like, thank, thank you for that. I, my heart is racing, but I’m glad you’re learning that thing. So these things often happen at night. Um, so the, the, for your situation specifically, you know, when we’re standing up, the only thing that we can really do is offer them the time to go back down again. And so they’re, this, this means one of two things that your child is going to sit down or in, if they’re sitting up they’ll, you know, maybe lay over kind of plop themselves over, like you were talking about, or they may fall asleep sitting or standing, and that can happen. So we need to kind of watch them, but we can’t do the thing for them.

Speaker 4: (10:00)
They’re going to be really frustrated while they are sitting or standing because they don’t, they don’t have that toolbox to be like, Oh yeah, okay. We just go this way. We just go that they don’t have any of that skills. So they’re like help someone helped me. So I do recommend helping giving a little bit of a break though. Okay. So we give them a large enough break. Like, let’s say five to 10 minutes to try to practice, because that is not, that is not last time. Like parents will see their child practicing. So in terms of rolling, the baby might be on their tummy and they kind of had their hands flailing. And they’re like, now what do I do? That is not useless time. That is then being like, does this work? Does this work? It doesn’t work, cry, cry, cry. Does this work?

Speaker 4: (10:52)
And the same for standing crawling walking, these are all, you’re going to see all of the same things, all the same patterns. So you’re going to give them like, let’s, let’s reframe the protest too. You’re going to have some unaided practice time because when I’m there, you’re just going to expect me to fix it. So I’m going to get you to practice. Okay. It’s been 10 minutes. It’s been five minutes. I’m going to go in and I’m going to sit you down. Now. This is the most frustrating part because every parent listening is like, yeah, I did that. What did they do? They pop right back up again. They shoot right back up. So if they’re standing there can stand right back up. If they’re rolling through on their tummy, I’ve had babies be like, okay, I’m rolling you over a clip. This is what my daughter did.

Speaker 4: (11:37)
I’m rolling you over. They would just literally flip flop, like a fish. And I’m like, Oh my God, it’s frustrating thing in the world. Um, I just, I obviously still have PTSD for my daughter’s like two week. Like I won’t roll. I don’t like it. But like when she did get it, she was an amazing sleeper. Um, so yeah. So then, um, I would flip her back. She would just flip herself back over. Then you kinda got to leave the room at that point. So I would try maybe four or five times to sit him down. If you’re listening and you have a rolling baby, roll that baby back over four or five times. If they’re just flipping back, you got to give them the unaided practice time. Okay. I’m going to leave the room for that five to 10 minutes. I’m going to, you know, bite my fist, have a small glass of wine, calm myself down.

Speaker 4: (12:29)
Then I’m going to go in and then I’m going to do all of those things. And I’m going to repeat that. Now that is going to be probably a shitty night that be probably won’t sleep well, parents will panic that, Oh my God, it’s now seven 45. Bedtime was seven o’clock and they’re still up. I’m just gonna, I’m going to nurse them to sleep. I’m going to rock them. They need the sleep. But then what we’ve done is we’ve stalled that progress we’ve stalled the breakthrough for them. So, and by the way, like, I always need to preface this. I say this without judgment, because we have all done it. I have done it. I have been like, I don’t care. I just am going to nurse you to sleep because I don’t want to hear this sound anymore. Um, and then it’s, then it’s like three or four days later and you’re like, okay, I gotta do something different.

Speaker 4: (13:17)
Other than that, it’s not solving that problem. So this is, you know, um, I’m, I’m, you’re four day after the, the issue of voice right now. Okay. So then, um, they’re going to get it. And when you give them the time and you kind of commit to it being a shitty one to three nights, they’ll figure it out with that unaided practice time in small chunks. I’m not saying shut the door. Don’t go to your baby. We’re going to go to do your baby, but we have to give them the practice time to do it during the times are really trying. Okay. Um, w if they fall asleep sitting or standing big disclaimer, you have to put them down after that baby will fall asleep and then they’ll fall over and then they might hurt themselves. Okay. So we have to go in after slowly, put them down.

Speaker 4: (14:07)
So the risk of that is crap. I’ve woken this baby up again. Now they’re awake because they’re in a state of development. They’re sleeping lately, and now they’re like, Hey, you’re here. And you’re like, Oh my God, I have to do this again. Oh, I can’t believe it. You might have to do it again. You might have to do it a few times. If they’re falling asleep, sitting or standing the great news for anyone listening right now, who’s going to turn off this podcast episode, because it sounds horrible is that that stops really quickly. Probably. I want to see no more than two or three nights, and then they will put themselves down, um, because it’s a pain in the rear for them to do it. Okay. Yeah. So that’s, that’s sitting standing stuff. Does that, does that make sense for you?

Speaker 1: (14:52)
Yeah, it does. I think I just thought so used to him being good at falling asleep on his own and like, not having to deal with like any crying or anything like that for the most part. And then when it came back around to, you know, teaching this new skill again, I was like, Oh, no, I don’t want to hear it. Like, I’d rather just like rub your back or whatever. And again, constantly sort of reverted.

Speaker 4: (15:17)
And I think, and I actually had this conversation with another client the other day about like, so sleep training is not something you’ll have to do repeatedly, but they’re, so I hate the word sleep training. I wish we had a different way to say what it is. Cause I think that people think of sleep training as a thing you do to a kid. Do you know what I mean? I sleep trained you, you got it piece out. So you know how to sleep for sure they know how to sleep, but there are going to be blips along the way. Anyone seeing different is lying to you. You shouldn’t have to be like, okay, here we go. Or taking out another week, it’s sleep training week part two sleep training week. That shouldn’t happen. But along the way, you’re probably going to have two or three day not great days while your child relearn a skill or learn something, whether that is like a physical development like or talking about, or, um, uh, like, um, language acquisition is another big one where they just get up in the middle of the night and they talk and talk and talk for hours and maybe they need some help or they’re just really frustrated during the day.

Speaker 4: (16:30)
You may have to like leave them in those situations. Um, before we move on from this topic, however, I do want to talk about rolling. Okay. Because rolling scares the crap out of parents. Um, because we have all been taught, never to place the baby on their tummy for sleep, and you shouldn’t place a baby ever on their tummy for sleep. Um, but if a child is rolling on their own and they are sleeping comfortably on their tummies, it’s safe for them to be there as always check my information with your pediatrician. Uh, you know, information is changing frequently, but a baby, uh, the skill to roll is a natural skill that all babies have to learn. They ha it’s just, it’s in like it’s in air. It’s in the wonder weeks. It’s everywhere. It’s like part of how they learn how to sit up and how they learn how to stand.

Speaker 4: (17:30)
So you can’t control that. And you know, I’ve had, I’ve had clients where I sleep, train them. Um, and then like a month or two later, the baby is rolling and they’re like, well, we’re trying to stop them. So we’re staying up with a monitor to watch them. And it’s like, no, you can’t because they’re going to do it in their sleep. Right. They’re going to do it when you’re asleep. So there’s a couple of things that I want to give people a heads up on. It’s safe for your child to be on the stomach, on their stomach. If they’re there on their own, they got there on their own. You didn’t place them there. Um, some people will say, Oh, you know, as soon as my baby gets to their tummy, it takes them a long time to roll to their tummy. But as soon as they get there, all they sleep so well.

Speaker 4: (18:15)
So can I just put them down on their stomach and avoid that whole thing? The answer is absolutely not. If they cannot get there on their own, they may not have the muscle capacity to get back. It is not safe. So you need to make sure this is like a tree. This is tricky business, right? This is why when your four month old is rolling on their tummy, we give them the supervise five to 10 minutes to roll back. But if they haven’t, we roll them back. Cause it’s not safe for them to be there. Okay. It is safe if they roll and they go, Hmm, I’m so happy and they go to sleep and they’re able to roll back. So you need to do a lot of during the day, rolling practice, roll their bodies for them, get them to feel what it feels like to roll back and forth.

Speaker 4: (19:04)
It’s going to be really helpful for them. Okay. You can tell, I don’t know if you can tell, I get a lot of rolling questions a lot. Um, yeah. So babies are going to roll in the middle of the night. There’s nothing that we can do. Part two of this is that your baby cannot be swaddled. They cannot be swaddled. If they are rolling. If your baby is showing any signs of rolling, sounds like maybe they’re just moving onto their side on their tummy is next. And we have to, we absolutely have to remove that swaddle. Um, we can talk about, uh, there are, uh, swaddle transition products that allow your child to both roll and feel a little bit small at all. Swaddled. So zippity, zip is an option. Um, it’s basically like putting your baby in a loose sleep bag. So they still kind of feel, um, comfy and cozy and, and kind of like swaddle, like, but they’re able to push up and roll safely back and forth. Um, so if you are in the midst of a swaddle, find it a good, uh, swaddle transition product for you that will, that will help you with that.

Speaker 4: (20:19)
Okay. So nine months, what, what do you think, or do you think you’ll be able to implement that?

Speaker 1: (20:26)
I think so. I’d like to start tonight. I don’t want it, like, I don’t want to keep creating this pattern of like assisting him and then, you know, we just get deeper and deeper into that. So totally. Yeah. I think why not? We got to jump in. That’s how we did it originally, like week training. Um, when we first started, we were like, okay, yeah, go time. So yeah, for sure. And not seem to be okay. Or better than the nighttime, same thing happens with napkin. Who’ve been helping, right? Yeah. Once he goes down and falls asleep, then he’s great. And he’ll stay asleep for, you know, an hour and a half, two hours. That’s two naps a day now. Um, but yeah, it’s still like, we’re still assisting okay. For him to get there. Okay. So we might, um, what I would suggest with any new skill building leave today during the day, like just leave it as it is because he’s going to be, um, you know, for anybody starting asleep program with me, or, you know, on your own, I always recommend leaving the day as it is, start these new skill, transitions that during the nighttime, when your baby is producing melatonin, um, if you start to say, Hey, let’s, uh, let’s learn this new skill when you’re not producing any melatonin.

Speaker 1: (21:47)
You only have cortisol and adrenaline running through your body and you’re learning a new skill. It’s not gonna be as effective. So allow him to practice that at nighttime. And then you can, I would start nap time stuff, if you haven’t already tomorrow just to get the best possible results. Okay. Perfect. Sound good. Amazing. Well, that’s that’s awesome. Melissa, do you have any other questions for me? Are you feeling good? I’m feeling good. My only other question would really be just with that nighttime waking. Like if he does happen to wake up, let’s say we start tonight and then he happens to wake up around 1:00 AM. I would do sort of the same thing. Like wait for five, 10 minutes, go in, play some down and then go out and wait again. Yeah. And you’re probably let’s expect that night waking happened because it’s happening.

Speaker 1: (22:41)
And now it’s getting earlier and earlier. Um, when we also remove ourself in that assistance, you might actually experience more wakings on that first night because he’s testing you he’ll be like, Hey, or he’ll remember, no one helped me. I’m awake now, are they going to do it now? So you might actually experience a little, like have a rougher night on your night one. Um, but yeah, you’ve repeat all of the same things that we talked about on assistant practice. Go in, place him down four or five times. If he’s standing, you leave the room and then you repeat, remember in the short term, it’s okay to take a little bit of a shitty night versus helping him. So he might have a later bedtime than usual. He might have a tougher night and then he’s going to get over it. He’ll he’ll he’ll because he’ll have that skill to, you know, the next year, the next night he’ll be like, okay, I’ll go to bed. I’m really tired. Yeah, for sure. Okay.

Speaker 4: (23:46)
Sounds good. Awesome. Okay. Well, thank you so much. Best of luck. Uh, everyone, uh, watching on YouTube, you can subscribe, like leave a comment if you are suffering from this problem and you probably are. And I pick this question because I get this question. So often leave a comment about what worked for you. Any other questions that you might have, and if you are listening, don’t forget to like subscribe and review as well. This allows a lots of sleepy parents to find my podcasts easily and help their child get from standing to sleeping in no time. This is slumber party. I’m Amanda Tusan. And thank you so much for listening. Bye. One of the things I actually forgot to mention to Melissa that may be helpful to you is that, um, you know, one of the most common fears for parents is that their child is going to fall, which is why you’re assisting them.

Speaker 4: (24:44)
And so when your child falls or, um, you know, bumps their head on their crib, they’re unlikely to be hurt very badly. Okay? I’m not saying they won’t be hurt and if they are hurt or if they bumped their head, I want you to go in. I want you to reassure them. You’re okay. They’re unlikely to really hurt themselves. And actually part of the falling and getting up is part of the learning process. They’re not going to want to fall. They’re not going to want to bump their brains again. So that’s going to be part of the learning for them that, Oh, okay. The last time I did this, I did a little fall this way. Maybe I’m going to go down this way instead. So will your child maybe bump their head, uh, once or twice maybe, potentially, um, that could happen, but it’s part of the learning. They will stop and they are very unlikely to hurt themselves horribly. Uh, they make it a little knock on the head or a bump. Um, but that’s usually as bad as it gets as always. I want you to be monitoring your child during this process, monitoring that they’re going up and down safely, um, and, and attending to them if they ever do hurt themselves. Okay. I hope that helps now. I’m really gone for real

Speaker 2: (25:57)
[inaudible].