Voice Over  0:01  
You’re listening to the slumber party podcast with your host Amanda Jewson, a mom of two girls, a child and infant sleep expert and general sleep lover. If you’re a tired parent who is desperate for answers, or just someone who loves sleep, this podcast was created just for you. Each episode is packed full of tips and tricks to help you maintain your sanity, as well as your social life during the early stages of parenthood. So grab your headphones, it’s time to get comfy.

Amanda 0:35
Hello, everybody welcome to another edition of this slumber party Podcast. I am Amanda Jewson. Coming to you live from my office where I essentially live in breathe. Thank you COVID. Today I’m super duper duper excited to speak with Rima about something that I have not discussed and I can’t even believe it. I’ve discussed it on my Instagram a little bit. But I haven’t really given it as much room on the podcast is as it deserves. And today we’re talking sickness, teething illness, things that really throw you and and what you can do to kind of preserve your sleep during that time. So welcome, rematch. ramaa Yeah, it’s good remind Yeah, yeah, that’s perfect. Amazing. Well jump in, tell us what’s going on.

Rima 1:26
So I have an almost 10 month old little boy who started daycare a few years, a few years ago, a few weeks ago. And he was such a he was a good sleeper. He was doing like sleeping all night, good napper. And, of course, when he started daycare, everybody was telling me brace yourself, he is going to get sick. So it was like, Oh, it’s okay. I’m going back to work in a while now in a week and a half. But then I was, you know, going back to work and I was like, let’s do the transition and see. And then everything. You know, when they’re sick, he was sick. He got a flu, and then the stomach flu and then a virus and he was sick for three weeks. And then he was teething. And they tell me like, you know, he needs to sleep. He needs to sleep he needs to sleep. So you literally followed his his his accuse on sleeping. But then he got better. But right now he at the daycare, they say he’s a good sleeper like he does the naps, no problem. Even here at home. It’s the nighttime, so he will go to sleep. And we do his routine. He goes to see by himself. We taught him that. And that, too am he starts to cry, like wakes up wailing. It’s the end of the world. And he’s crying and crying and cry. And then we are trying to, you know, suit him with a pat on the back. We try not to take him out of the crib. And we’re here and we’re trying to comfort him. I do it. My husband does it. And then it gets worse. It’s like, wait, and I’m like, Okay, let’s change the diaper. So we tried to change the diaper. He’s crying through the whole that the this whole thing. We try to give him some milk. Maybe he’s hungry. No. Okay, well, that nothing. He’s pushing everything away. We try not to give the pacifier that much because we we’ve heard what you said, and we read you, you know, and then he just grows, it takes him on average, between now two to three hours to go back to sleep. And in this two to three hours, he is just crying. Nothing works. There’s we tried this wing, we tried to pacify we tried missing in him a song that he loves that he actually gets sued with. Since he was a baby. My husband literally goes like this and then walks around the condo, nothing works. And then at some point, he just accepts a little bit of milk and it goes to sleep. But I have no idea what’s happening. Like I need to.

Amanda 3:56
Yeah, no, I mean, and this is a really so to make you feel a little bit better. This is super common. You’re going to see this a lot, especially after illness. And he said that he’s nine months, right? Which is a time were babies so aware and alert. I always say like after seven months old. We’re not dealing, of course your baby is little but they have personalities. They have likes, they have dislikes, they have preferences, they have ways of doing things that they would prefer over another. So I think you’re starting to see some of that personality come out a little bit. Okay, so I, as always in this I would probably if you and I were in a consultation, I would just jump in. For the sake of this podcast. I’m going to answer this question in a very roundabout way. Okay, so people are thinking about all of the variables that I’m thinking of. Okay. So, the first thing that you know when it comes to illness um, you Yes, the advice that I give my clients is, if you know That your baby is sick, and we know that during the day, I kind of say, let’s, let’s, you know, take it, I don’t want to say let’s stop this sleep work that we’re doing and immediately help them to sleep, because some parents will be like other six, so come and co sleep with me again, or, um, I’m just going to help you right now. And also, that’s a choice. And that’s okay. It just means that after the child is feeling well, you have to jump back into the sleep work that you’re doing, which is, you know, not the end of the world, it’s just something you’ll need to know. So then what I say is, lets, you know, if your child is sick, go in right away, offer that comfort, and that love and that support, offer any pain relief that they might need, you know, maybe an extra cuddle, maybe a little bit of rocking, just to calm them down, and then back down again. Generally, if we kind of stick to that, number one, I find that a lot of parents predict that their child will have more problems than they actually do. So you know, they’re sick, they’re like, oh, they’re never gonna sleep tonight. But actually, your body has an instinctual response to sleep for a long time. So it might actually be that if you leave your kids alone, they might sleep more when they’re sick. So give them a little bit of space, I’m not saying let your sick child cry for an hour, I’m saying give them two or three minutes before jumping in, because they could very well put themselves back to sleep at that point. So that’s, that’s number one. Number two about the illness part is that if your kid is so sick, that they require that assistance, they’re probably not really gonna remember being held back to sleep in a time where they really needed some comfort. And so you know, don’t feel like you’re doing something wrong going to comfort your child. I think that’s very Okay, and acceptable and normal. And like I said, if you ever get to the point where you have to do all of like your sleep draining your again, or your sleep work, you can do that you can come back after.

So yeah, that’s essentially that’s essentially my message in a bottle, right, like, respond to your child. Now, the next part is, sometimes and it seems like this might be happening to you. Sometimes we get to a point where the night started out bad because of the illness. So then we have helped and helped. And then we start to say, well, the nights haven’t got better. Is he still sick? Is he uncomfortable? I don’t want to leave him uncomfortable or sad or in pain, like you’re a human? Of course not. And then so you’re like, Okay, I’ll just go help you now. Because obviously, we haven’t figured this out yet. If you’ve had it, this is where I would ask the question, does your day behavior match your night behavior? And you kind of you hinted to this at the start of this episode. You said at daycare, he’s he sleeps like a champ. Oh, he seems healthy and fine, he seems rested. And then all of a sudden, in the middle of the night, then we have those issues. This is where he asked people to evaluate your day and night behavior. If your baby is let’s say teething, or your baby is sick, they will be teething and sick during the day too. They will, they will be grumpy, they will be fussy. They will be knowing everything. They will be snoring or not really wanting to eat or just set of swords. And then yeah, okay, then we definitely want to encourage that. But when we’re at the point of like, Hey, Mom, fine, everything is fine. I’m good, but I’m going to cause some heck in the middle of the night. That tells me potentially during that part, we might have accidentally introduced a sleep Association. And, and we’ll see that’s okay. Yeah, yeah, that’s what I was thinking. I was like, we did something and to get it. I think that happens. But that happens. He’s a smart and aware baby, right? Like you’re not dealing with a little mini guy. He’s like, oh, when you guys came in and did that thing. I really liked that. For sure. Yeah, I think so. So okay. Let’s, let’s pick up. Oh, sorry. Sorry. There’s a little bit of a delay. You go ahead. No, I

Rima 9:30
was just saying like, you’re that’s what my husband and I, we were thinking to ourselves is that we, he probably thinks that that is going to hold me and mom is gonna just send me a song. And they’re not going to let me because sometimes he comes down and then we put him and then right back up. He starts to cry again. And he know he has the sniffles, but he’s not he doesn’t have a fever. He’s teething. We give him the pain relief. And he still feels like there is like the end of the world and And I get literally right now I have anxiety, because I’m like, Oh my God, is he gonna wake up? Is he gonna cry for three hours? Is he gonna do it and then he literally goes to sleep at 545. I let him sleep. And usually he woke up at 630. But now I let him sleep a little bit longer before daycare, he wakes up a happy camper. And he’s like, oh, and he’s playing and he’s smiling. And I’m like, What happened? You were wailing two hours ago. So it’s kind of hard for me. It’s, I have anxiety attached now to this reaction that he has.

Amanda 10:39
Yeah, that nighttime anxiety is so real. And I would feel the same way. I definitely remember when my daughter got her first two teeth. She was eight months. And it was so bad. We moved in with my in laws for two weeks, just so I could get some rest during the day. And I remember I would go to bed and I’d be like, it’s gonna have. So I definitely I remember I’ve been there. That’s exactly me. So okay, then no, this is where I Exactly. Okay, I want to back up and I want you to talk me through what happens before bedtime. So in the last 20 minutes, what are you doing in your routine? And is your feeding or milk the first or last thing that you do?

Rima 11:34
So when we start the routine, usually we he eats his supper, I guess his solids. And then I usually give him a bath. And we go into the room and then we change him, you know, and then we do storytime we do a French story and or an English story, that he has this turtle and we’re like, you know, he wants to cuddle with it. And we’re like, okay, she’s going to sleep well. So after that we just changed his diaper one last time, but he eats before he doesn’t eat. I mean, before the routine and not at the end of the routine. Okay, yeah. And then we do like, we change him. We put his swaddle. We put his swaddle in, and then we do a little song just to calm him and wind him down. And then we give him a kiss. And we turn on the sound machine and then we put him in his bed. I don’t we leave say goodnight. And close the door. Okay, and within within 15 minutes he’s asleep. He’s not do you mean

Amanda 12:31
sleep sack? Or do you mean? The sleep sack? Yeah, here’s his hands. Do you mean a sleep sack? Or do you mean is he swaddled in? Okay, got it? Got it. Okay, cool. Yeah. Okay, so the the only thing then, so in that case for you, it sounds like there’s nothing immediately jumping out into that routine sounds good. The only thing that I would watch and maybe pay attention to is, is the My phone is your baby, you know, any sort of thing that you have to do to get baby to calm? Or, like parents say it all the time. It’s just No, I’m calming them down. But they could actually be getting too drowsy, which is a state asleep, and then they go down either open. Okay, mom, goodnight did it. And then it allows them to do the work. But sometimes they start waking to have this, okay. I’m not, I’m not like that’s what’s happening. But it’s something to watch. It’s something to watch. So part two of that is this could just purely at this point via a weakening issue, which is common of older babies with like, Girl, this baby goes to bed on their own. They fall asleep on their own. All they do is wake up. Why is that happening? And that can happen. And I think that your baby is giving you like physical signals. I don’t want your help. I don’t want your help. The more you help, the more I cry. I don’t want your bottle. I don’t want your rocking because you’re like, come on, come on. He’s like, No, no, no. And I say to parents all the time. When it is it is taking you three hours to put him to bed. He’s He’s done it. That means your help in the middle of the night is no longer as effective as it once was. And he is very frustrated by that. So he’s like you’re doing all the things. It’s not it’s not hitting like it usually does. I’m not really tired. What can I do? And that would be the time where I say Okay, listen, when he waits, we might have to take a step back. And now that we know that he’s healthy once you know that he’s healthy and everything else is okay. He might have to do a little bit of fussing it crying it out while you do that. Now I see crying, you know, I don’t mean, leave your baby and don’t check on them until the morning. I mean, you go to him and say Hey, buddy, I love you so much. I’m just outside and know that you’re having a hard time I’m going to give you a little kiss hug. Okay, I’ll see you in a little bit. You leave and you’re going to return. Continually check on him. Make sure he’s okay. You know, when I love this conversation because you are so many of my clients, where it’s like, you know, okay, let’s go. Anti sleep training people always say like, your child needs you. Your child needs you. They need you to fix things, which for some babies, yes. I have so many babies for these parents are rocking, padding shushing co sleeping, rubbing, wearing their baby like a snake doing yet, like I’ve seen it all, it’s so insane. And if your child is like this, as at work we can do is honor those feelings and say, Okay, I tried everything. But I’m still here loving you love. I’m not I want to connect in tune with you. But I’m going to have to pull back on my help.

Rima 16:02
Yeah, what do you think about that? Well, that’s what I was gonna. That’s what my main questions and the things that we talk about with my husband is because my husband is more, leave him be. And I think like, because like you said that there’s a lot of people that say, Don’t sleep train, because you’re gonna let him cry, and then he thinks you don’t love him. And then I think I got a little bit carried away just because it’s my first baby. The first time he got sick, and then he was such a good sleeper, and all of a sudden everything went to hell, that I’m like, Well, if I let him cry, is this damaging him right now? Or am I doing him harm? And it’s more for me to be reassured to say, he knows I’m here. I mean, I just go, but it’s just yeah, it’s I don’t I mean, my husband is probably better than than me to get to like the step back and say, Hey, leave him be. I just don’t want him to think that I’m not there for him. And sometimes when I feel like we know, at the end of the day, after three hours that we look at each other, like I am at my wit’s end, we have to close his crib is in our room, just because our condo is small. So in a way, the crying is where we are. So basically, it’s like, let’s get out of the room. And, you know, leave him be. But how long should I wait until I go comfort him? Again? If he’s crying or like i, this is what I need. I need a little bit of your perspective into maybe not feel as guilty to let him cry it out a little bit. Totally.

Amanda 17:37
Yeah, yeah. Well, listen, I mean, we can talk specifics after this call, I’m always kind of hesitant to share specifics on this podcast, just because I don’t know every factor. And so people will ask me this question a lot. Like, what exactly do I need to do? There could be a health concern, there could be food issues, there could be so many things that I never want people to listen to this podcast and be like Amanda Jewson told me to leave my kid for 15 minutes, and that kid needed to eat or something, you know, let’s always, like, here’s what I’ll say. You’re, you’re telling me that he is a guy who is, you know, otherwise healthy, otherwise, fine, he is crying. I always say the baby is gonna cry on you, or the baby’s gonna cry off you. And generally, crying is not something that we need to tell babies, you don’t cry, babies cry, babies cry for so many reasons. And I’m not saying let him cry, shut the door and see him in the morning. I’m saying give him some space because what you are doing isn’t effective anymore. So then it’s like, give him some space, remind him that you’re there and that you are connected and attuned, which you are doing. And there’s nothing wrong with that. You know, instead of having three hours of crying on you, he might have like, an hour of crying, but, but that leaves to sleep. And then that hour of crying becomes 30 then 15 and then it doesn’t happen anymore, okay? Because in that crying time, he reacquaint himself with the things that make him feel good to sleep, because unfortunately, whatever you’re doing, for whatever reason at this time, isn’t hitting this spot for him. No, right. So he’s like it, like think about all of the things that you’re doing. You know, when we look at the science and studies of sleep training, anti sleep training, people are purposefully misleading people avoiding science. I have I don’t have it here. There’s a great book I just bought called the bottom line for baby by Tina Paine Bryson. I want everyone to write this down. She did not sleep train her kids. In fact, she didn’t even like the idea of letting her child cry. The idea of this book is that she talks about all of the topics that come up in baby stuff, and then gives you what the science is about it. There’s another book called crib sheet by Emily Auster. That does the same thing. I actually interviewed Emily, in season one of this podcast if you want to go back, and we’ll check it out. Yeah. So in this book, with this woman, who is like a psychologist, a PhD, didn’t sleep, train her kids. What the evidence tells us is that there is no difference between babies who have been sleep trained and babies who weren’t, what does that tell us, we don’t have to do anything. I don’t think that you have to sleep train, I don’t think that you have to co sleep. But if what you’re doing isn’t working, and it’s no longer serving you, then we actually have to probably think of something different, right. And what we do know is if you do choose to sleep train, you get off this call with me and you do decide, there will be no difference in your little guy, if you did it, or you did it. Now there could be some benefits for you that you were more rested parent, you were more able to care for his needs. If you’re happy with the current situation, and you feel like you’re rested and good mother and everything is fine, then you don’t have to do anything. But in terms of like damaging. And we’re not talking like true extinction cried out, I don’t really know. And that’s not a method that I follow. And I don’t advocate for that. I’m not saying there’s anything wrong, I just am really focused on data driven decisions and giving you that advice based on the data.

But what we know is a tuned sleep training. This means letting your child know that you’re okay, whether that’s camping out sitting with your child during the process, whether that’s leaving the room periodically with some checks, both are fine. Both let the baby know that they’re okay. Both have connection points. And in times where the baby knows that they’re not alone. I can’t. And so we have all of that. That’s what we’re advocating for. And the data says it’s okay. I feel very sad that these advocates continue to mislead people and potentially put them you know, you seem fine. But there are parents who aren’t fine, given your situation in the next day, who have to go to work and support their family. Yeah, absolutely. I know you’re sorry. Go ahead.

Rima 22:41
My Nutrition told me when we went to see him for his seven month checkup. He told me if you have to, you can sleep you can start sleep training your baby. But I had already like started doing things with him. And I was like, Sure, I’m, I’m totally fine with that. Because for me, actually, I even booked a call with Karen tomorrow. Because to seek a consultation with her to see if I can you know, we already did it. So tomorrow we’re talking with Karen. Because I’ve seen you I mean, I’ve seen your content. I’ve been following you for a while and I really trust like I trust you. I think it’s my husband, at some point wasn’t really sure about this.

Unknown Speaker 23:22

Rima 23:23
you know, like the word training for him is a little bit. But yeah, after this week, it was like, okay, we gotta I hate the word training frame is like, Okay, this is not an animal in the zoo. And I’m like, No, I know. But this is not what it is. So I was talking to him about you and everything is totally Yeah. And he checked you out. And then he was like, Okay, well, let’s give it a try. And then we contacted each other. And then I you know, I followed the Q and A’s as well. And they’ve been helpful to me. So I said, you know, why not? Let’s just give it I mean, it doesn’t hurt anyways, like he said, I mean, if we know that the baby, it’s more for us to be make sure that we are at our best. And I cannot be his best mother if I’m exhausted. So it’s just my you know, Stoli. And I know that you know, I mean, I’m going back to work. So that was

Amanda 24:11
like, this is a total plug for my business. Yeah. Yeah. 100%. And this is a total plug for my business. But the other part of this is like, I tell people all the time, if anything feels like maybe the parent is, is really struggling with sleep training, or the baby is not responding. I shut it down. I am not into anything that feels gross or disgusting. And let’s pretend like can you imagine me running a business where at the end, all these babies slept, but they no longer smiled? Or were connected with their families in any way or connected with their caregiver? And it’s like, go to the reviews right? Yeah, go to the go Google me go Google. Have reviews. I mean, with the exception of some people who, you know, a few people said not great things, you’re gonna find over 200 people who are like, holy crap, this is so much better than I thought it would be. And everyone is happier now. And so that’s my goal, right? Like, if I was like, Look, I’m gonna get you eight hours of sleep, but your baby isn’t gonna smile anymore, like, never do that. Nor would anyone ever hire me again. In No. So like, we’re all on the same page. And personally, and I always push people to this, and it’s not for money, or monetary, it’s like, I actually designed DIY programs for more accessibility for people. So I wanted more people to have access to good sleep work, the long and short of it is, is that they weren’t as effective. Why? Because every child is so different. So even we could get off this call, I could tell you exactly what I think you should do to sleep train, in three days, once your guy is rested, he’s gonna do all these different things that require modification on our end, for long term, ongoing sleep success you need, everyone needs a personal touch. And I really believe in my team, and the people that work for me, because it’s like, it’s not a one size fits all. It’s not in any stretch, we got to see, I always tell people, I hate being prescriptive. I like being responsive. Because I might tell you to do something that doesn’t jive at all with your child for whatever reason. So, you know, again, this is one big promotion for baby’s asleep. But I do think even if it’s not with my organization, or my company, finding a consultant, to work out these issues with and troubleshoot with is going to mean, you’re going to be smarter with this sleep work, you’re going to have a better understanding of what we’re attempting to do. And the other part of it is that we’re really going to nail it for your baby. So for shots, that’s an exciting,

Rima 27:13
I’m excited. Yeah, I’m excited. I mean, I mean, yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, what we want is for him to be happy, and healthy. So I mean, if we are investing so many things to get him to develop properly. I spending this time if we’re able to find something that we can add to our toolbox of parenthood, and to be sure that he sleeps better and connect his cycles and things like that. Why not? I mean, at the end of the day is worth it. It’s you know, we we’ve we struggled to have him. I mean, he’s our bait, right? Well, baby. So I’ll do anything to make him happy. So and then, for me, now I know how to handle him when he’s sick, because it was the first experience. But for sure, I mean, like I said, you’re you’re even just your Instagram, and some of the podcasts I listened to you were so helpful. Sometimes I was just like, Okay, well, that’s exactly it. And then I was like, I did it, and then myself and it worked. I was like, Oh, that’s good. It doesn’t have to be like sometimes it just like you. That’s it. Like, I like the way you do things. I think, also, it’s kinda like to make sure that we find somebody that we can trust. And also, I’ve seen the reviews and I was like, Well, I mean, if that’s gonna work for people, why not? So I booked something with Karen, for tomorrow. So I was like, Okay, well, let’s

Unknown Speaker 28:31
get this done.

Rima 28:32
I think it’s so tough tomorrow. And then for sure, we’ll invest in Let’s do it. Let’s, let’s do that. But thank you so much for your it’s been very helpful. And I love it. Yeah, I think you clarify a lot of things for me right now. I’m like, clear in what you said. Like, it’s true. He’s He’s crying three hours in my hand, my arms. So he’s still crying. So I think for me, like now it clicked in my head a little

Amanda 28:58
bit. So let’s reduce that.

Rima 29:00
Yeah, let’s reduce it. Like you said, I mean, if I had just clicked, I never thought about it, actually crying my arms for three hours. So he is crying. So it’s good that clicking things are

gonna tell my husband like, you know that. So thank you, Amanda, for taking the time and for

who were so responsive to me because I think I touched him. I sent you the message. And right away, you were so helpful. I was like, I don’t feel alone. I think we’re following you as well. I think also when you have all these cases, and Q and A’s are a great idea. Because I was I thought I was by myself. And then you see all the mothers and fathers and caregivers that have these questions. And sometimes I’m like, Oh my god, I asked myself that question. Oh my god, so we feel less alone. So thank you so much for what you do. It’s really great.

Unknown Speaker 29:52
Yeah, yeah.

Amanda 29:56
Well, that has been the best part of my day. Yeah. So thank you so much I that’s my goal. That’s exactly what I do this year. So thank you. On that note, we should stop here, everyone. If you want more sick kid tips, you can actually head over to the Instagram instagram.com slash baby’s best sleep I actually have a highlight reel of sick kid tips if you forget what you’ve heard today. If you do want to work with a member of our team, and the lovely Karen, Emma or myself, you can head over to babies best sleep calm for all of that information. And thank you so much Rima, we’ll talk soon.

Thank you for having me.



Whether you’re at the beginning stages of sleep training with your baby or you just want to improve your mental health as a parent, the sleep consultants at Baby’s Best Sleep are here to help. Contact us today