Voice Over 0:01
You’re listening to the slumber party podcast with your host Amanda Jewson, a mom of two girls, a child and infant sleep expert and general sleep lover. If you’re a tired parent who is desperate for answers, or just someone who loves sleep, this podcast was created just for you. Each episode is packed full of tips and tricks to help you maintain your sanity, as well as your social life during the early stages of parenthood. So grab your headphones, it’s time to get comfy.
Alright, Hello, everybody. Welcome back to The slumber party podcast. I’m Amanda Jewson, sleep lover sleep neater sleep however, that is what I am. I’m so excited. And I say this every week along with I say this every week. But I am I just I love the guests that we have on this podcast. And today, we are speaking with azura Goodman, who is a lactation consultant and ibclc inclusive feeder. I just am obsessed with azura here on my Instagram, I just sing her praises all the time. And I was just so excited to have her on the podcast. And I know we’ve talked about breastfeeding and sleep on this podcast. But I get a lot of questions about breastfeeding 95% of my clients are breastfeeding in inner work together. Those I don’t think I’ve had not to my knowledge anyway, any clients who’ve had to stop breastfeeding as a result of any sort of sleep work. And I love talking breastfeeding. Because I think a lot of people come to me and they are worried about their breastfeeding relationship. And then I’m going to tell them to stop breastfeeding. And I’ll never ever do that because you don’t have to. Anyway, with all that being said, Azura, thank you for coming today.
Thanks for having me. This is great. I also fan girl Amanda. So it’s
Oh, and I am. I’m trying to figure out how I found out about you. I don’t know how I found you. Do you remember? I don’t I don’t know. I feel maybe
I don’t know. One day I think you DM me, I probably followed you. And then maybe you clicked on me. And I remember a message from you. And you’re like you are a unicorn?
Well, I remember I okay. So last year when I did, I was looking for someone to come and talk about breastfeeding. And I went into like several moms groups to be like, hey, did anyone work with a lactation consultant that was also supportive of their sleep journey, I would love to talk to him. And no one wrote me back. And I was like, Oh, okay. And like I like reached out to a few people. And there was something, I actually have a colleague in the states who is
not an ibclc. But like in a lactation specialist, or there’s a different designation in the States. I think there’s sort of so
the international designation is ibclc. So internet, solvent, Dory, I forget the two. But I know there’s also certified lactation educators because it’s actually a really long journey with 1000s and 1000s of hours of like, training and exposure to be an ibclc. But there’s lots of great lactation support, but that don’t have that particular designation. Yeah, yeah. And all types of lactation support are good, including peer support. But yeah, so everyone, some people have different designations, but I’m also an RN who works with parents with perinatal mood disorders and infant feeding. So I think it’s a it’s a good mix of, yeah, designate, yeah, that’s why I’m inclusive of the sleep thing.
Right, and of all types of feeding. And we’re going to talk about breast and chest feeding today for the most part, but I also like, a lot of my journey as a sleep consultant is, you know, assisting families with the sleep thing, but a huge part of it, sleep is feeding. I don’t know how to like, I, I don’t know how you feel about this. And you don’t have to comment on this, because I know it’s like very controversial, but I feel like if you say anything that you’re supportive of like bottle feeding of formula, it’s like automatically, you’re suggesting, like not supporting breastfeeding moms. It’s like, No, I just support any way that you want to feed your baby. I support anything that is about giving you sanity. And so a lot of the times I see a lot of clients and by the way, it’s the same with sleep, right where we get obsessed with breastfeeding, we get obsessed with sleeping, and it like drains the parent to their core, and I do start to worry about like, Is it worth it? When you’re breastfeeding with this, like distraught look on your face and your baby’s like, Is everything okay? You have they’re like, what are we doing? So then that’s where like my mental health background comes in. And I wonder like, Is it our, you know, is it always the best thing, and and I breastfed both of my girls for as long as they possibly could, and they wanted to, and I love breastfeeding. And I supported in my work, but there is a lot of pressure, there’s a lot of pressure on parents, what are you seeing,
I feel a lot of pressure, I also just want to say that I am a lactation consultant and a registered nurse with an interesting perspective, I absolutely understand that breast milk is ideal with regards to decreasing health risks for the infant and being well tolerated by the baby’s body. But I also understand that a lot of parents don’t have access to exclusive breastfeeding, or chest feeding, because you know what they might have to work, or it might not work with a medical treatment plan that they have, or it might not work with their lifestyle, it might not bring out the best in them. And it it might not work despite having done everything right. So I do talk about formula quite liberally, and I talked about it as though it’s it’s just as good as breast milk or human milk, chest milk. Because Because it is for for a lot of folks, it’s it’s quite safe method. And I do believe everyone, everyone knows that, that breast milk is superior. And I don’t think I need to belabor that I don’t need to, I don’t think I need to hit people over the head with that information. You know, most parents are extremely educated wise people with with great instincts. And, and I don’t think that they need to be reminded over and over that breast milk is best because I do believe most people know that. And most people have the right to feel good about their parenting decisions. Whatever they were, if formula wasn’t safe, it wouldn’t be on the market, it wouldn’t be accessible to families, it’s a great substitution when breastfeeding or chest feeding isn’t working. And I just want people to feel like their best is enough. And I very proudly gave my baby formula as well. Because sometimes I forgot to pump until my partner gave a bottle because I needed to friggin sleep. And that’s okay. And I think that’s Yeah, and I think it’s just really important. There’s nothing wrong with bottle feeding, there’s nothing wrong with formula people have dedicated their entire lives to making formula so that babies have something to drink when there’s different reasons why not do like, for instance, I was separated from my baby because of a serious wound issue after a C section. So and there’s different reasons why to have the baby. But but there’s, there’s so many reasons why people don’t breastfeed and it doesn’t matter. It shouldn’t affect anyone. And when people hire me, for instance, I work for you. So I want to support what you want to do. And I also want you to be the happiest thing. I think because of my background. I really recognize that what well a baby obviously needs food, the baby needs calories. But what a baby needs more than anything is responsive parent that is maybe not over the moon enjoying their parenting experience, but getting some joy out of it, and is able to connect enough to read baby’s cues. And so if that means you’re giving a bottle who gives a shit?
Oh my god. So yes, and you This episode is going to air after this episode that I’m going to refer to but if you listen to a few weeks ago, my interview with Bethany Saltman, who wrote the book strange situation all about the basis of attachment theory. So this idea of like with attachment parenting that your child has to be on, you let Attachment Parenting is the style of parenting that you choose. But you can still have a wonderful attachment with your child simply by experiencing joy with them and wanting to have an attachment with them and making them the apple of your eye. Like it’s so easy to have these attachments. However, the fuck you choose to feed, whether it’s with your chest or with a bottle, it really doesn’t matter. And I think like, that’s what it comes down to, for me that we’re kind of in both camps. Yeah. It’s so funny how I’ve evolved as a parent. Like I just think of all of the messages that were given to me when I have my girls and I was like, well, I did give formula. But then I felt bad at first and then I was over quite quickly. But it’s like, there are these zealots and extremes and we can have so much gray in parenting as long as you are responding to your child’s in a loving way. Whatever then most of the time, I should say. Because there’s gonna be times where you know what?
Yeah, the only place for zealots is people being really passionate about people having Having the support that they need if they want to feed, a lot of people feed, like, like I said, Don’t feed for a lot of reasons they could have sexual trauma and being touched in that area over and over can be really triggering, they could have specific sleep needs because they have mental illness. And they might have a job that supporting their entire family, they might have to go back to work after six weeks, even in Canada, despite, like, there’s just so many reasons. And I don’t know, people who are zealots like that, like I think it’s more about them. I don’t know why people are so interested in what other people are doing. So it’s, it makes me so upset if if someone wants to support like the the health of these babies, they should be supporting the health of the parents. And also with attachment theory and attachment parenting, I think attachment theory is based on science and research based, whereas some attachment parenting that is really, really intense is more like people who’ve taken it out of context, and made it very extreme to the point where sometimes your baby doesn’t want to be on you. And that’s a whole other level of emotional intrusiveness, that’s not going to be supportive. So it’s you also have to read the cues of when baby wants to be put down. The baby needs space away from you. Because it’s Yeah, it’s so tricky and nuanced all of this stuff. And then there’s one more thing you said that with regards to like bottle feeding, connecting, and I think I have an interesting perspective because I have a female partner. And my female partner has such a great level of attachment. And she’s she’s not like a female partner that fills a father role. She’s a female partner that filled another mother role. And she always incorporated bottle so that she could, and they have such a beautiful secure attachment. So it’s, I think that really speaks to parents who do know, Brassard chest feeding at all, like, just see, I wish I could, like, their relationship is so beautiful and secure. So it’s, yeah, it can be really supportive of attachment, for sure, especially if people are having a hard time attaching, we can use rest or chest feeding for it, but it’s not necessary.
Totally. I also think about same sex male partners who don’t have the ability to brush your chest feed. And to suggest that those partners don’t attach with their child is wild to me. So then it all breaks down to in which most of these episodes get down to patriarchal thinking, who benefits from this type of parenting style? What what messages are being sent about parenting and motherhood, specifically in women’s roles within that, you know, a lot of this it, you know, these are choices. But in the end, I think we just need to be so grateful and happy that we live in a time where we can make choices about how we choose to parent and how we show up as the best parent, that’s so great. So if these things if you know, co sleeping, breastfeeding, those all work for you, then so awesome, yay. But also, it’s not the only way. And just like sleep training. And you know, bottle feeding is not the only way, right? There’s so many ways to be an amazing parent. And that’s I feel like the message I want to get across always. So, you know, that being said, so I come into the work and everyone’s number one question, like, I just got off a discovery call, but a half an hour ago, with a couple and she’s like, well, first and foremost, I just want to make sure that I can still breastfeed. I was like, Oh my god, you know, what a barrier to entry for me that people think that you can’t breastfeed your child and sleep. And my story of that, as always, like, I always said, I would do whatever I could, as long as it serves me. Right. So breastfeeding was very easy for me. But both of my girls stopped breastfeeding in the middle of the night when they were 12 weeks. Now I had an unbelievable supply. And I know that had something to do with it. I also didn’t make them stop feeding in the middle of the night. It’s just what happened. So it’s like that happens all the time. Really naturally. That baby sleeps through the night with them feeding it. So yeah, I would love for you to kind of like speak to this myth. I know it What I’m saying is kind of vague. But their babies don’t have to eat in the middle of the night. And by the way, I support that they do and we work that into plans. But sometimes we even like I had a baby that I just started with this week. We worked into feedings. She has been sleeping through the night without waking for those feedings. No one made that happen. We had this plan and then she was like, No, I’m cool. I get enough food. I get my calories during the day goodbye. But it can just happen and I think There’s this message that no, if you’re breastfeeding, you need to be breastfeeding all night or all the time.
I find a lot of the times, so well, not a lot of very frequently, I’ll talk to folks and there’ll be scheduling their feeds through the day. So there’ll be a breast or chest feeding, or like every three hours or so. But sometimes if you take the schedule away, and you let your baby feed, and then they want to feed an hour later, and then it’s three hours, and it’s 45 minutes, you’ve let them tank up as much as they need. And then their body chooses to sleep for a long period of time. And there you go. That’s actually people are going to hate us manda. But that’s actually what happened to me at 12 weeks as well. My baby just started sleeping through the night, but also people kept telling me like, you feed your most people, my mom. Other other folks are like, your baby sure likes that boobie like she’s always on there, because I let her feed as frequently as she wanted and tanked her up. She picked herself up during the day and slept slept through the night. But yeah, I think the only time that a baby absolutely needs to be fed, during the night, if they’re not asking for it is when they’re below their birth weight. Or there’s specific medical issues or blood sugar issues. Or usually you would be told by a medical practitioner, you have to feed your baby. And then if you would follow that, otherwise, if babies choose to sleep longer stretches, like the amount of people I talk to, and I’m like, they’ll they’re telling you that they’re waking their baby up for the night, and they have this real chunker. And I’m like, it’s your baby waking up in the night. You’re like, No, no, but at the hospital, they told us to wake her baby every three hours, but their baby’s like two months old, yes. And cranky, because they’re being woken up and I’m like, let it sleep, let it sleep. But no, I think that you can you can implement sleep programs for sure if your baby is at a healthy weight. And typically what babies will do is flip to drinking more during the day. So you’ll often see them taking another feed or another, maybe even two feeds during the day. And they’ll make up for the calories in that way. And typically, the amount of milk that’s taken out of like the breast or chest is replaced. So if your baby’s still taking lots of milk out during the day, despite having like a gap and feeds, it’s typically Okay, some people have a more vulnerable supply. And they’ll start to implement sleep programs and see a little bit of a dip. And that might mean that, let’s say you put your baby down at seven or eight, you might want to pump before you go to bed. Or if if you’re really noticing a big dip, you might want to pump one time in the middle of the night, which which sucks. Or you can kind of give it a few give it a week or two, see how it goes and maybe add another pump in during the day. But there’s lots of things we can do. I like working with families while they’re working with sleep stuff to protect the if the breastfeeding relationship is really hard, often Yeah, you probably find this with your clients too. If babies had like weight gain issues, or parents had supply issues at the start, and they really worked so hard to get there. And then they put they really want to do the sleep thing. And then they tell you that they’re like buddy works so hard. And I don’t want to I don’t want to mess up my recipe and experience and so but there’s there’s ways of, of meeting like the sleep and the feed needs. It’s all about creativity and understanding your particular body, your particular supply. But
it’s really important that before and this is self, this is a humble brag or self congratulatory, but if even if you’re not working with me, you need to be asking these questions in your discovery call with your sleep consultant that they have a good handle on breastfeeding. So they’re not just like, you know, potentially being like, well, I guess your milk isn’t there. You should give it up, which I have heard or, you know, doing what’s easiest for the consultant because it isn’t always easy for the consultant especially when there are supply changes. To get that supply back. Like you actually have to have the person has to have a pretty good understanding of how your body or how breasts work, how chest work to feed a baby. And not all consultants do and I’ve heard some pretty insane things. So yeah, it’s about most like 80 to 90% of my clients I don’t really like when if they stop night feeding altogether. And a lot don’t but if they do the supply just kind of reallocates during the day we don’t seem to have a lot of issues with that. Oh, you said something about getting up in the middle of the night and I Oh, well. No, it’s got well I think of it up to pump. I think it was around the idea of pumping and a lot of people hate pumping. And I wanted to like what I suggest is exactly what you said like pump before you go to bed. I usually get away with pumping once in the morning after you fed your baby. Especially if we can get to the point where we’ve the feed is gone. Mum usually wakes up kind of in gorge they feed the baby but They have extra milk, so pump that them and let’s get your body knowing like, Hey, we extract a ton of milk at this time. Let’s do this again tomorrow. And that’s kind of the insurance policy I set to hopefully reallocate the milk to the daytime quicker.
Exactly. Because if that is the milk that would have been removed at night, it’s the same difference, right? Yeah, let’s say you remove, you remove that we’ll never know how much comes out of our breast. It’s always a mystery. You’ll never know for people who want to know numbers. But let’s say you took 28 ounces out of out of the breast or chest during the day at whatever point that’s typically how much is going to be replaced. And that could be at any time.
Yeah, yeah. So
yeah, I like like what you’re saying that’s exactly like very similar guidance to what I would encourage as well.
I actually remember what I was gonna say exactly. So one of the things I love about your Instagram feed is like you’re in, you’re in favor of like sleep ends, like sharing sleep ends, which I think is like a parental Savior. And not a lot of people do it. There’s this guilt that like, if we’re going to be sleepless, we’re sleepless together. And I am just very firmly going to tell you that that is not the right idea. You need one adult with a rested brain. And it doesn’t have to be you, it could be your partner. But you know, part of what you talk about for breasts and chest feeding parents is like, pump a bottle, so your partner can take over or like so you can get that extra sleep or have that sleep bed. And it’s so important, it’s so important to be able to do that.
Yeah, and even if you don’t pump a bottle, and it’s here and there like it’s not one, missing one feed isn’t going to be the thing that’s going to end your journey. And I think like just like you said that tap each other out. Yes, for your own relationship and you’re a parent your feeding pair, but you’re also just a person like that person needs rest. This isn’t you’re not, we’re in a society that is so different from how families used to be like there, there would have been an auntie there would have been grandmas there. There might also have been lactating other lactating parents who would have let you sleep and heal and they would affect your baby. So it’s like you have to kind of creatively figure out how to get to the point where you can get some sleep. Also, if you’ve if you are the one who carried the baby, like your body is recovering, like you need that rest. So and that’s why us practitioners like to say the most annoying words you’ll ever hear, which is sleep when your baby stuff is triggering. It’s really hard to do. It’s really hard to do and I get that it’s that it’s not always possible. So if you can’t sleep when your baby sleeps, then then sleep when your partner’s not.
I like to say instead of sleep like your baby sleeps, his parents your first like it’s your second child. So, you know and why what I mean by that is I remember my in laws came over with Winnie. And we’re like, we’ll take the baby for the next while you go sleep. And I stayed in my room with my eyes wide open, totally terrified that the baby was downstairs without me. And this is you know, first parents stuff. And then I went down. I was like, Yeah, I slept. No, I didn’t, I did not, I couldn’t. So, but then the second time that happened, my in laws came over and they’re like, go to sleep. And I did go to sleep because I knew that it was it was few and far between. But it can also be hard, especially in these pandemic times for families are trying to be, you know, careful with the amount of support they have in their homes. You know, it is hard. So this is where like relying on your partner to help can be it’s, it’s, it’s a survival skill. Truly, it’s just to be able to do that
you have to give your partner the opportunity to practice because of course you can do it better. You can do it better. But if you’re a baby, I say this to my clients a lot. Is the baby safe. Yeah, they’re like, Yeah, but but they might put on the TV or they might, they might just put the baby on the play mat and play on their phone and okay, but that is the baby’s safe. Is the baby gonna be okay, is the baby gonna? Gonna? You know, eat and be okay. Yes. And that’s Yeah, and the more frequently and not everyone has partners and I realized that. But if you have the luxury of having a partner slowly building capacity where you can watch them, and you build trust with them as they build capacity in the role because if someone threw a partner in who hasn’t been given any opportunity to practice into like trying to calm a crying baby on their own, if they’re going to panic, and you’re going to see them panic, and it’s going to be like a cycle where you’re like, just just get the baby back to me. Don’t worry about it. And so yeah,
and I don’t want it Like this is a, what’s the word I’m looking for hetero normative statement. But a lot of men, if you do have a male partner, a lot of men haven’t had the coaching growing up that most women have in mothering techniques, right? So when my brother was born, I changed his diapers. Or, you know, well, many women grow up with these messages of like, you’re the babysitter, or come help me with the baby. And so I do think that is actually quite powerful, increasing confidence for women, and men aren’t provided those opportunities or haven’t been as they’ve grown up, I think that like, my partner, is for sure I do the part the parenting stuff better than him. But he was never provided those opportunities growing up. And he’s actually very sensitive and caring and extremely involved in his kids lives. And he is, by all accounts, a very modern, progressive feminist partner, but he was never given those opportunities. And so when I see it a lot, too. It’s like, Oh, don’t do it like that. It’s like, well, he doesn’t know. And now we’ve just like, deflated his confidence. And now he doesn’t want to do it. Like, hmm, aka, this is what my husband does to me with cooking. He’ll be like, Okay, can you make some dinner? I’m like, yeah, look at me make dinner. He’s like, not like that. Oh, God, we’ll just do it. And so now
I don’t cry. I’m feeling hurt. My partner’s also stressed. And I yeah, I kitchen when I cook because I feel very watched. And they’re like, so like, it’s like, is that a dice? And I’m like,
I can’t. I can’t that’s that’s probably how it feels. Yes, I know. It doesn’t really thought about it that way. But that is what it is. It’s the exact same feeling where it’s like, get out of here. Let me do it my own way. In the end, it’s going to taste fine. But even it will be like, Huh, boiling water? Who any salt that I’m like, just get out. I’m literally boiling water. You have you can have no criticism about boiling water. Um, I was gonna keep forgetting because we can’t I could like talk to you about like my own personal stuff like, hey, so what’s going on in your life? So I have to like stick to the topic. So yeah, on On that note, I feel like part of getting partners involved. Obviously, when you’re bruster. Chest feeding is the idea of bottles. Many of my clients are terrified, certain zealot lactation consultants don’t support bottle feeding, don’t provide support for it. Like literally like this is how you bottle feed or this is how you pump. I’ve heard of clients being refused service because they brought a pump into their consulting appointment. Yeah. Yeah. So how do we get past that? And is like nipple confusion a thing? Good question.
So, for the record, I work with some I work with adoptive parents who are exclusively model. There are a lot of bottle feeding issues that that people have like gastroesophageal reflux or babies refusing anyways, that makes me really sad for those folks. And that’s that’s not how I’d a lot of the ibclcs that I know are in jive with practice. With regards to nipple confusion, if things are going well for you for the first like month, five weeks, then you can start incorporating a bottle and the key to incorporating a bottle is pacing the feed because we have to remember that that organ that is the breast does not flow constantly, it mosun you might have heard let downs or waves and then it kind of ebbs and then it will flow again. So what we want to do or you can work with someone or there’s so many great YouTube videos on pacing a bottle feed and part of pacing the bottle feed is one decreasing the gravitational force. So the bottle is more horizontal than you think with the end of the nipples full but the rest of the nipple might not be. So that baby has to suck and actually remove the milk rather than it just falling down for them. Another one is every like 30 or 45 seconds is you’re keeping that nipple in the baby’s mouth, but you’re actually dipping it below their lips. So there’s no flow, they have to suck for a bit nothing’s happening. And then the milk flows again, you bring it back, not taking the bottle out so they don’t freak out. But you’re just flowing it down and then and they’re usually like okay, they just sucks that sucks up, you know a few beats and you bring it back up to that horizontal level and they stuck to remove it. And so if you’re pacing the feeds, another thing that will that will help one it will mimic the raster chest a little bit more, but they’ll also not overeat so just like us was easier to overeat with the bottle because it’s flowing so much. So just like that will overeat like it takes a while for stomach to catch up kind of with their brain or the other way around or whatever people say that and same with same thing with the baby when you paste the feed and and I’d say every like, you know, three or four minutes fully taking the bottle out of the math and just checking in is baby protesting and wants it back. Are they just looking around and like looking at you and they’re actually because a lot of people will will feed these jumbo bottles. Which is it’s it’s fine, but just make sure that that’s what baby means because you overfeed with a bottle with like formula your Express milk baby might not feed for a while maybe not feed for five or six hours and that’s when it can start affecting your supply because overfed at the at the bottle yada yada. So I think paste bottle feeding which is super easy to learn. You don’t need a professional to teach you can can really help but with regards to nipple confusion, no. And another thing that’s confusing for parents is parents being told not to give a pacifier but that a pacifier can reduce the chances of SIDS. What are important people supposed to do with that information?
I don’t know. I wait do we get I I remember being so afraid to give Winnie the bottle because I love breastfeeding. And I didn’t want her to be confused. But let me like in my experience, and now working with so many mothers like literally 1000s of mothers, I can tell you that baby always loves the boob more. It is so rare. They’re they don’t even want that fucking bottle. They want your boob. You’re like, it’s it’s crazy. I mean, meaning that when you first start, they’re like, what is this? It’s not like they’re like, this is so much better. Like my kids. I mean, loved. I have the giant chunky as photos of them to prove it. Okay, so I we are nearing like the end of my crap nap timing. So I’m going to stop it where we have some good information that was so helpful. I didn’t even know about this pace, bottle feeding. So I’m going to look into this. If you work with me, anyone who works with a baby’s best sleep consultant, I actually commissioned Zahra to create a guide for me in case there are changes in your night feeding schedule. So if you like what you hear she’s she’s like a mini program, part of our programming. But also I refer so many people to you because you’re so lovely, non judgmental, and awesome. But it Where can people find out more about you and your wonderful ways? Yeah.
So check me out on Instagram. So it’s at azura infant feeding. Also, my website is www.azurainfantfeeding.com. And yeah, I’ve been doing this now for about eight years, privately just just for a shorter while because I always worked as an RN, kind of in this role. And yeah, if you want someone without an agenda, and someone that is going to build you up, instead of laying on the guilt, and give you evidence based strategies that are grounded in reality, hit me up. I love what I do and love working with. I love babies so much. But I also just like knowing that people are able to enjoy their parenting experience a little bit more and building up the confidence that you know, you knew it all along. I’m just there to facilitate it. You’re the one doing the work and yeah, I’d love to work with you. It’s my absolute pleasure in this life.
You are the best I’m not lactating anymore, but I just want to hire you to like Tell me. All right, thanks, everyone. And as always, if you are looking to sleep, you can hit up our website babysbestsleep.com. Book a consult a free discovery call with myself, any member of my amazing team. If you are not looking for that you’re just looking for a few little tips and tricks. You can head over to my Instagram at baby’s best sleep or the blog, or I mean your hair you’re listening to this podcast is is pretty great too. Hopefully you’re sleeping. Have a great day everyone and thanks for coming.